The 'Let's Talk Ageing' Series

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Welcome. I'm Robert Fitzgerald. I'm the newly minted Age Discrimination Commissioner taking over from the great work done by Kay Patterson. 

And today it's a great pleasure to launch a new series of interviews with prominent Australians, thought leaders of our nation, in relation to ageing. And the series is called 'Let's Talk Ageing'. 

We hope that by having these discussions with prominent individuals, sharing ideas and thoughts we might be able to create a better environment for those of us that are ageing, a positive environment, and also to deal with some of the big issues confronting older Australians. 

Today, it's a great joy to be able to interview, as our very first interview, Emeritus Professor Rosalind Croucher - the current President of the Australian Human Rights Commission. 

Almost about to finish her term, and Rosalind was also Acting Age Discrimination Commissioner shortly before my appointment. 

So welcome, Ros. Ros, it's really wonderful to have you as our first interviewee. You've just recently come back from the United Nations in Geneva. I was just wondering what sort of reflections you've had on that visit, given it's your last as President of the Australian Human Rights Commission. 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Thank you, Robert. 

The visit was in the context of the annual meeting of the Global Alliance of National Human Rights institutions. There are 120 worldwide, and it's a very big group. 

We have business that we have to get through, but we also have an opportunity to focus on key thematic issues that concern us regionally and internationally. 

And one of those that came from our own region was the importance of a Convention recognising specifically the position of older people. So that was one of the themes.  

And to see it have prominence in that context indicates that it really is one of the issues of the moment. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

And as you and I are both at that age where we get to be called seniors. And for some of us we're going to become grumpy old men and women in our old age. 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Speak for yourself!  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

With your extraordinary background.  

But, how do you see yourself approaching old age or ageing?  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

We age from the day we're born. 

So ageing is not confined to a certain numerical age, although certain physical issues are associated with a numerical age. I see that with each year you get wiser, and I appreciate the physical things that happen as one gets older. 

But, age and maturity give you an enormous amount of wisdom. And I think one of the challenges is getting that alignment of what people see from the outside, to see the wisdom and not see, or not be distracted by physical ageing, but rather see the strength of years accumulated as wisdom accumulated.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, what do you think are some of the great challenges for older Australians? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Hanging on to their autonomy and agency. And one of the difficulties happens with what people see from the outside, and the assumptions that are made, and this sense of sometimes coming from a space of benevolence, wanting to help. 

But the wanting to help can also be a denial of, 'what do you want?' 'Can I help you?' 

Rather than framing it as 'what I can do for you because you need help?'  

Framing it rather as 'you are so wise, can I help you in any way?' Or, 'what do you want?'  

So, it's that sense of agency and autonomy as you age that can easily slide into this benevolence that can overtake and deny you agency and autonomy. I think that's the thing that I saw the most. 

And for the most part, it wasn't evil. But that excessive, paternalistic or benevolent approach can actually deny you the space for decision making, good and bad.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Yeah. One of the things that I've often said is that as we age, we become invisible, or less visible, and worse, voiceless. 

And in many senses, the thing that underpins both elder abuse and the abuse by others in our community is, of course, that loss of agency, as you said, that voice not being heard. 

But do you think there are some practical measures Australia needs to do at a policy level and at a practice level, to sort of moderate the risks that we see in elder abuse and in fact, that diminishment of agencies we've been talking about?   

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

There are so many things. 

I could see the lists going through my mind as you asked the question. I think that the starting point is always to assume agency and not to start from an assumption of, 'well, we need to make sure someone is there to be your backstop or whatever'. 

So in the aged care context, for example, if people are going into the appointment of an attorney 

under a power of attorney document, and then assumptions that went with that, that they were the decision makers, not that they were your default in the event that you needed that support, but rather they became the decision maker, which immediately assumes that lack of agency on autonomy. 

So, it was a flashpoint for those kinds of things. So, all kinds of decision making, whether it's decisions about care, whether it's decisions about food, where you live, what you want to do, that you retain the primary agency in any policy or practise or process that detracts from that fundamental proposition 

needs to be looked at closely. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

You've got a conference coming up for Free + Equal, or pushing the particular agenda. 

Some people would say, you know, Australian older people have it pretty good. Now we know some don't, but the big question is, why do rights actually matter? And I suppose underpinning the work of the Commission and the push towards a United Nations Convention on the Rights of Older People 

what is it that you think is missing in our current system that would be rectified or strengthened by having a stronger rights-based framework?  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

A stronger rights framework, and particularly anchored in domestic legislation that aligns more directly with the promises our governments make to the world by signing up to international treaties. 

That stronger anchoring in law would provide what I see as a much higher responsibility in making decisions and designing policy, but also in accountability, so that decision makers can be held to account. There are remedial pathways that potentially actually lead to a remedy and not just some piece of paper that doesn't go anywhere. But that responsibility and accountability would be anchored properly in laws of our own. And for older people, one of the problems is the invisibility. 

And while one can assume, well, the position of older people in rights terms is no different from any other rights context. 

The problem with that is that there is that danger of invisibility and disappearance unless the position of an older person is recognised in the way that we recognise people with disability, the issues in relation to race, gender. 

If age is not singled out for its own particular recognition, there is the danger of invisibility of a cohort, an increasing cohort with increasing vulnerabilities that go with the physical consequences of ageing, sadly, that the dangers of invisibility can be compounded by an assumption that we don't need specific protection for older people. 

So, over the last couple of decades, as there's been work done on that potential for a Convention, many governments, including the Australian governments, have either sat on the fence or have been completely indifferent to it.  

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

Why do you think that's been the case, not only for Australia, but generally? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

I think the answer is found in the very broad commitments that are already contained in the range of international conventions, certainly that Australia has signed and ratified seven, in fact. 

And the commitments in those general Conventions apply to older people as well. 

So people might argue, and argue well, the coverage in rights protections at the level of international treaties is very wide. 

But the problem, as we've been discussing, is the danger of disappearance. 

The danger of invisibility in the context of a population, where we are an ageing population, and that's not going to get less, it's going to get more. 

And with that, if we assume that all's well and dandy because of the coverage of others there is the problem of lack of visibility of the specific rights issues that apply to older people. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

So, if people want to become involved in this issue or become more knowledgeable about the issues that you've been raising, Ros, what do you think they should do or what's available for them? 

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Well, the Human Rights Commission itself is a wonderful resource of material through submissions that we make on a whole range of issues, the various inquiry reports and so on. 

In relation to rights at the moment, and the tipping point that we have in terms of embracing a revitalised human rights framework in Australia, which is the central point of our Free + Equal report  

and inquiry advocacy, is to see the work that we're doing, read the material we produced, join us at the conference, the Free + Equal conference in the first week of June which will be fantastic and really get interested and engaged in what these issues mean for you. 

Because everyone is ageing. It is not something that is out there in the future, a long way away. Ageing starts from the day we are born. We have people in our lives that are wonderful older people. You will be that person sooner than you realise.  

So, these are issues that are relevant and important to you, now and in the future, and for our country to make it a much stronger place of rights protection for older people. But all our people. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

That's terrific. A terrific way to end.  

And hopefully you and I, and everyone else can enter ageing in a positive way and our experience be as positive as possible. 

So, thank you very much.  

Em. Prof. Rosalind Croucher, AM, outgoing Australian Human Rights Commission President 

Thank you, Robert. 

Robert Fitzgerald AM, Age Discrimination Commissioner 

These series of talks and interviews will come out on a regular basis by the Commission and we're very hopeful that you can engage in this process as well.  

If you'd like to find out more about this particular 'Let's Talk Ageing' series, or any of the work of the Human Rights Commission, or especially the Age Discrimination Commissioner, just go to our website and hopefully we can join you in the future. 

Take care. 

Question 

Who is an older or younger person who inspires you and why? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

My sons.

I always learn new things and get different perspectives from them. Watching them navigate through life, making conscious choices about what is important to them and then acting on those values inspires me. 

I hear about their challenges – some of which I have also faced, many I have not. Sometimes my experience and ideas help, sometimes not. 

But we can always share, and I can always listen. They are supportive of me and what I do. They challenge me and it makes me think hard. They strengthen what I know - that building understanding and connection across generations helps challenge ageism.

Question

What do you see are the key challenges people face as they get older? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

Ageism is a real barrier to ageing well. 

Ageism stems from deeply held, often unquestioned negative beliefs about what it means to get older and about older people.

Ageism is pervasive and highly tolerated. Ageism is in ourselves - what we tell ourselves and how we feel about getting older. Ageism is in our relationships and in our institutions.

Ageism has devastating impacts on our health, our financial security, our sense of relevance and participation, and our control over life decisions. Ageism leads to exclusion, discrimination, mistreatment and inequity, and diminishes our rights and autonomy.  

Ageism can make us, and our concerns, invisible.

Question

Tell us about EveryAge Counts and what it is doing to address these challenges. 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

EveryAGE Counts is Australia’s national coalition-led, grassroots movement of individuals and organisations dedicated to highlighting the social, economic and civic impacts of ageism experienced by older people, and building an Australia that no longer tolerates it.

EveryAGE Counts builds public awareness to challenge these harmful attitudes, stereotypes, assumptions and discrimination. Our vision is “a society where every person is valued, connected and respected regardless of age”.  

We work together to positively change the way we think act and feel about ageing and older people, and to set the foundations for current and future generations to age well. 

Question

How can others get involved or support this work? 

Dr Marlene Krasovitsky 

Visit our website https://www.everyagecounts.org.au/ and take the pledge to stand for a world without ageism. 

Join with the many individuals, organisations, Local Councils, think tanks, peak groups and service providers to build an Australia without ageism and stay connected with our growing movement. 

Take the ‘Am I ageist?’ quiz, share our resources and start a discussion - with your family, in your community or workplace. Join us on Ageism Awareness Day on 9 October. 

The more we name ageism and call it out the better chance we have of drawing these negative attitudes, assumptions and behaviours out of the shadows, and creating a world where we can age well.